if it is talking about grid lock, i'm the wrong man. >> president bush, the question goes to you. you have 2 minutes. the question is this, are there mornt issues of character separating you from these other two men? >> i think the american people should be the judge of that. i think character is a very important question. i said something the other day where i was accused of being like joe mccarthy, because estioned -- put it this way, i think s wrong to demonstrate against your own country or organize demonstratio against your own country in foreign soil. i thinit's wrong. maybe they say it's a youthful indisgrerx. i was 19 or 20 flying an aircraft airier and that shaped me to a leader. it's not a question of patriotism, it's a question

of judgment. mabel gotten on me about read my lips, if i make a mistake, i'll admit it. i just find it impossible t american can demonstra against his own country in a foreign land organizing demonstrations against it oung men re held prisoner in hahn oy or kids out of the ghetto were drafted. some say you're in a low fashion, maybe i am. whether it's character or judgment, whatever it is, i have a big difference on this issue. we'll have to see how it plays out. i couldn't do that. i don't think most amcould do that. they all say, well, it was a long time ago. let's admit. i made a terrible mistake. how could you be commander in chi of the armed force and when i made a tough decision panama or

kuwait and say some kid, i'm not going to go. the commander in cis organizing demonstrations half way around the world during another era. there are differences, but that's the main area where i think we have a difference. wel talk about that in a bit. >> mr. perot, you have one minute. >> i think the american people make their own decisions on character and at a time when we have work to do and we need action, i think they need to clearly understand the backgrounds of each perso i think the press can play a huge role in making sure the backgrounds are clearly presented in an objective way and then make a decision. certainlanyb-- anyone in the white house should have the character to be there. it is i to measure when and where they did occur. did they occur when you were yng or a senior

official in the federal government. a senior official in the federal government spending millions of dollars of taxpayers money and you're a mistake, was ticket. i would say, lookat all 3 of us, decide who you think will do job, pick that person in november, because believe me, said before, the party is over f clean-up crew. we do o have change and people that don't take responsibility for anything when it happens on their watch and people in charge time. >> time is u more later. >> governor clinton, you have one minute. >> ross gave a good answer, but i havrespond to mr. bush. you have questioned my patriotism. you even brought some right wing person to attack me

how ing to russia when over 60,000 americans did. i honored your service world war ii and mr. rot's honoring in the military. but, when joe mccarthy went around this country attacking people'spawas wro. he was wrong. the sen tore from connecticut stood up to him. you were wrong to attack my patriotism. i was opposed to the war and i love my country. we need a country to bring this country together. i want to lead a unified untry. >> all right. we move now to the subject of taxes and spending. it goes to governor clinton for a 2 minute question. it is asked by ann compton. >> governor clinton, can yo

middle income families can be guaranteed a tax cut or what income level they can be guaraeed no tax increase. >> the tax increase figures in at $200,000 and above. >> they had their incomes go up while taxes down. middle class people defined as people with incomes as $52,000 and down had their incomes go down while th taxes went up in the reagan-bush years because of 6 increases in the payroll taxes. that is where it would trigger. >> there would be no tax increases below -- >> my plan, notwithstanding -- my plan igures in at family incomes of $200,000 and above andgive modest middlerelief to restore faespecially to people with incomes

below in addition to that, the money i raise from upper monepeople, if they pay the same income on their income the same as american corporations do, they will give incentives back. i wt to give permant incentives back. a resource and development credit, a long term proposal for business and expansion. we have to have no more trickle down. we don't need no more cross the board cuts for the wealthy. i'd like to create more millionaires than were created under mr. bush and reagan. i don't want to have no more years with no tkwrot the private sector. that is what happened in the last four years. we need to invest and grow and that is what i want to do.

>> president bush, 2 minutes. >> i didn't question the man's patriotism. i questioned thman's judgment and character. what i don't except is demonstrating and organizing demonstrations r a foreign country when your country is at war. i'm sorry, i cannot accept that. this one on taxes ells out the big eflt difference between us. i do not believe we need to go back to the mondale proposals or dukakis proposals of tax and spend. golfr- governor clinton says $20 orkz000, but he says he wants to raise $150 billion. that won't get you $150,000. when you add his other spending proposals, you sock it to the workingman. that old ad"we're going to soak the ri we're going the rich." it always ends up being the poor cab driver or the workingman that ends up paying e bill. and so i have a different

approach. i believe 9 way to get the deficit down is to control the growth of mandatory spending programs and not raise taxes on the american people. you got a big difference there. >> mr. perot, one minute. >> we got to have a expanding job base to give is a growing expanded tax base. we have a deteriorating job base. we have got to really rebuild our job base. th's going to take mone for infrastur to do that. our competitors are doing that. we are not. we cannot pay off the $4 trillion debt, ance the debt and have the industries of the future, without the revenue. we will go through a period of shared sacrifice. there is one challenge. it has got to be fair. we have created a mess and don't have much to show for it and got to fix it. that's aboutall i casay

in a minute. ay. the next question goes to president bush for a two-minute answer and it will be asked by sandy vanocur. >> mr. president, your secretary of the army this week said he had no plans to abide by a congressional mandate to cut u.s. forces in europe from 150 to $100,000 by the end of september, 1996. now, why almos50 years after the end of world war ii, and with the total collapse of soviet union, should american taxpayers be taxed and support armies in europe when the europeans have plenty of money to do it for themselves? >> that is a good question. the answer is, for 40 some yes we kept the peace. t keeping the peace in costs of europe, it would be exorbitant. we have reduced the number of troops that are deployed and going to be deployed. i have cut defense spending, and the n we

could do that is because of our fasuccs in wicold war. we nwould have got there if we had gone for the nuclear freeze crowd, never would have got there if we listened do those who wanted to cut defense spending. i think it is important that the united states stay in europe, and guarantee the peace. we simply cannot pull back. now, when anybody has a spending program they want to spend money on at home, they say let's cut money t departme i will accept and have accepted the remmendations of two oven leaders, general colin powell, and secretary dick cheney. they feel that the lels we're operating at and the reductions that i propose are proper, and so i simply do not think we should go back to the isdays and start blaming foreigners. are the sole remaining superpower, and we should be that, and we have a certain disproportionate responsibility, but i would ask the american people to understand that if we make

imprudent cuts, if we go too far, we risk the peace. and i don't want to do that. i have seen what it is like to see a war and to see the burdens of a war, and i don't want to see us make wreckless cuts. because of our programs, we have been able to gnificantly cut defense spending. let's not cut into the muscle, and let's not cut down our insurance policy, which is ipation of american forces in nato, the greatest peace keeping organization ever made today. you got problemeurope, still bubbling along, even though europe is going democracy's oute, but we are there, and i think this insurance policy is nece i think it goes with world leadership, and i think the levels we have come up with just about right. >> mr. perot, one minute, sir. >> if i'm poor and you're rich, and i can get you to defend that's good, but when the tables turned, i will do my share.

right now we spend $300 billion a year on defense. the japanese spend around $30 billion, the germans spend around $ billion in europe. for example, germany will spend $30 million building an infrastur over the next ten years, kind of easy if have ck up a $30 billion tab to defend your country. the european counity is in a position pay a lot more than they have in past. now that they can, they ld. we seem to have a desire to stay over there l. they don't want us to control it, very candidly, so i think it is very important for us to led them assume more and more of the burden and for us to bring that money back here and rebuild our infrastructure, becauswe n only be a superpower if weareconomic superpower, and we can only an economic superpower if we have a growing, expanding job base. ernor clinton, one minute, sir.

>> i agree with the general statement mr. bush made. i disagree that we need 150,000 troops to fulfill our role in europe. we certainly must maintain an engagement there. there are certainly dangers there, there are certainly other troubled spots in the world which are closer to europe than to the states, but two former defense secretaries recely issued a report saying that $100,000 or be necessary, inr troops would frank carlucci. many i consulted agree. we will have to spend more money the future on military technology and greater mobil tir, greater airlift, greater sea lift, the b-22 airplane. we wilhave to do things that are quite costly. i think we don't need to keep 150,000 troops in europe, gin how red army, now under the control of russia has been cut. the arms agreement concluded between mr. bush don't think we 0,000 i

troops. let me make another point. mr. bush talked about taxes. he didn't tell you he vetoed a middle class tax cut and vetoed an investment tafmg credit paid for by raising taxes on the wealthy. >> all right. we go to mr. perot for a two-minute question, and asked by john may can sheck. >> mr. perot, you asked about sharing the pain. as part of plan to reduce the federal deficit, you suggested we raise gasoline taxes 50 cents a gallon over the next five years. why punish the middle class to such a degree? >> it gets to 50 cents at the end of the fifth year. i think "punish" is the wrong word. again, i didn't create this problem. we a trying to solve it. if you study our international competitors, clengts up to $3.50 in

taxes and use that mon to create jobs and build infrastructure. we collect 35 skhrentss and we don't have it to spend. i noi it's not popular, and i understand the nature of ur question, but the people who will be helped the most by it are the working people who will get the jobs created because of this why do we have to do it? kpwaus we have so mismanaged our country oifrer the years and it is now time to play the fiddleer, and if we don't, we will be our children's money. we have spent $4 trillion worth. an incredible number of children are active in supporting my effort causconcerned that we have taken the american dream from them. i think it is fitting that we are on the campus of the university tonight. these young people, when they get out of this wonderful university, will have difficulty finding a job. have got to clean this mess up, leave this country in good shape and pass on the americ to them.

we've got to collect the taxes to do it. if tre's a fairer way, i'm all ears. >> but, see -- let me make it verclear, if people don't have the stomach to fix these problems, i think it is a good time to face it in november. if they do, they will have heard the harsh reality of what we had to do. >> governor clinton, you have a minute, sir. >> i think mr. perot has confronted this defic issue, but i think it's important to point out that we really have two deficits in america, not one. a bunlet deficit, but also an investment of jobs, an income deficit. people are working harder for less money than they were making ten years ago. the $16 hundred drop in the st two years.

the problem with the perot prescription is that a economists that talk about it, if you cut the deficit, it will slow down the economy. that's why i think we shouldn't do it that quickly. we have a discipline over the next five years. first, et inseptemberives to inv we have to investgrowth. they have endorsed that approach because it offers the best growth to put america back to get the income rising. >> president bush. >> i disagree with mr. don't think it's fair to slap a 50 cent tax over the many years of the people that drive for a living and peop that go long distances. i don't think we need to it. i agree what talking getting the spending down

and the discipline although i think we should exempt social security. he's talking tough medicine. i diith the tax and spend philosophy. i don't think we need to tax more and spend more and say that is going to make the problem better and i'm afraid that is what i'm hearinfrom governor clinton. what we need to do is some of what ross is talking about. control the growth of spending and get the taxes down. he mentioned ways to do it and ree with him. i've been talking about the cut, but they it's a tax cut for the rich. i'for a tax allowance and for the tax break for first time home buyers and with thisew congress ng in, gridlock will be gone and i'll say, let's get this done. spend route.wanto go thtax >> let's go on with the

subject of jobs, the first question to president bush and john mashek will ask that question. >> mr. president, last month you came to st. louis to talk about a lucrative question. today, a retired saleswoman, margeory robertasked if she could ask a question of the candidates and said she wanted to register her concern aback of a plan to convert our defense oriented industries into other purposes, howould you answer her? >> i assume she was supportidecision on mcdonald-douglas. i assume she was supporting the decision to sell those airplanes. was a good decision. i took heat for it, but i think it was the correct decion to do. we worked it out and we're moving forward all around the world in a much more peaceful way. that one we came away with creating jobs for the

american people. i would say, look at what the president proposed on j. when you cut back on defense spsome people are going to be thrown out of work. if you throw 150,000 kids on the street, you're going to put a lot more out of work. i would say, look at the job retraining programs we're proposing. therein is the best answer to her. another one is, stimulate investment and savings. i mean whave big economic problems, but we are not apart at the seams. we are ready for recovery with interest rates down and inflation down, the cruelest tax of all, caught up in a global slow down right now.atwill change if with the programs i've talked about aif you help with job retraining and education. i am a firm liever that our america 2,000 education problem is the answer. it will take a while

educate, but it is a good program. her best hope for short term is job retraining if she was thrown out of work at a defence plant. tell her it's not all that gloomy. we're the uentd states. we faced tough problems before. look when the democrats had both the white house and the congress, it was throug. can do better. the way to do better is not to tax and spend, but to retrain and get the control of the mandatory programs. i am much more apt mystic about this country than some. >> mr. perot -- mr. perot, you have one minute, sir. >> well, the defense is going to have to convert to industries. the sooner they start the sooner they'll finish. there will be a significant. it is important not to let the industrial base deteriorate. we had someone who i regret said it, in the president

staff said he doesn't care if we made potato chips or computer chips, anybody that cares about it, care as great deal. you make more computer chips and 19 ouof 20 chips have come from japan. as we face these industries, there isa lot of intelletalent here. that's where the high pas are. we need a very carefully thought through phase. we practice 19th century capitolism. the rest, 21st capitolism. i can't handle at in a minute, but i hope to get ck to it later. the countries and businesses to work togetr in an intelligent way. >> governor clinton, 1 minute. >> we must have a transition plan to plan to convert from a defense to

an economy. nobody has cut that mu. there are 200,000 people unemployed in california alorn because we have cut defense without planning and to retrain them and invest into the chnology here at home. that is what i want to this administration may say we have a plan, but the truth is they have not released all th the poultry some of money that they proposeated. i want to take the money and reinvest in technologies for the 21 -s> ventry. let's put the american people to work. let's build the kind of high tech, highways, high growth economy that the american people deserve. >> all right. the next question to mr. perot 2 minute question. it will be asked by ann compton. >> mr. perot, you talked about rebuilding the job base, but is it true that unemployment will increase and slow the economy and how uld you spey

use the powers of the presidency to get more people back into good jobs immediatel >> step one, the american people send my up there. the day after election, i'll -- we won't wait until inyaug ration. i' ask the president to help me and thstaff, we'll put together teams to take all the plans that exist and do something with . there are great plans all over washington that nobody executes. it's like having blue prints for a house. you never build. you never sleep. take these things and do something with them. you want to put america back to work? clean up the small business problem. second, you got the big companies in trouble, have something on that. have a third task force make sure to nail the country and not wind up in asia. >> we have an adversarial relation shich wi

government and business, our international coetitors that are clning our plate have an intelligent relationship between government and business and a supportive relationship. then, have another task force on crime, because nextto jobs our people are concerned about their safety, health care, one othe debt and deficit. finally, in that 90 day period before the inauguration, give the american people a christmas president. show them by christmas the cut in the plans. by the time congress comes into session and go to work, have the plans to go in front of congress and get off to a plying start in '93 to execute these plans. re people on this stage and in this room that would be in meetings that would say, are we going to talk about this something about it? put together the plans by chstmas and be ready to

go when congre goes. nail these things. you have to htol and credit these small businesses. we can create more jobs there in a hurry than any other place. >> governor clinton, 1 minute. >> this country needs a job program. my first priority would be to pass a job program to introduce it on the first day i was elected. i would meet with the newly elected members of the congress. thermany other with om i could meet. we would present a jobs program. then we would present a plan to control health care costs and pin health care costs. until we control health care costs, we're going control deficit. first, we must have an aggressive jobs program. i live in a state where the manufactgrowth far-t paces the race. we created more jobs in our

countrthan has been createe country since mr. bush has been in. we've done it in arkansas, give me a chance to create these jobs in america. do it. i know we can. >> president bush, one minute. >> we've got the plan. now, what we can for small business, it is announced. we have things that can work fast tis tax allowance and capitol gain, and more on researctax credit for first time home buyers. first thing i'll say is, you do in domestic affairs what you've done in foreign affairs and be the economic coordinator of all the domestic side of the house and that includes all the economic side, all the training side and bring this program together. we're going to have a new congress and we're going to say to them, you've

listened to the voters the wear we have, nobody wants gridlock anymore. s get the program through. i believe it will work because as ross said, we've t the plans. the plans are all over washington. i've put ours together in the agfor american renewamakes sense. it crtes jobs. it gets to the base of kind of jobs we need. i'll be asking fosupport to get that into effect. >> the next question to governor clinton for 2 minutes and asked by sander vanocur. >> governor n, when a president running for the first time gets into the office and wants to do soabout the economy, he findthere is somedy that has more power over the economy than he does, the chairman of the board. that g the case, would yogo along with proposals by other peto make the federal reserve board

more accountable to ted officials. >> let me say that i think we might ought to review the terms in the way it works. frankly, i don't think that's the problem. we have low interest rates today. at least we have low interest ratesthat the fed can control. our long-term interest rates are high because of our deficit and economic there was a terrible reaction internationally to mr. bush saying he was going to give us 4 more years of trickle down economics and across the board tax cut and most going to the wealthy of no guarantee of investment. i think the important thing -- the important thing is to use the powers the president does have in the assumption that given the economy, we're going keep interest rates down if we can discipline the investment and reduce the debt at the same time. thcommitment. i think the americ people are ry for action.

i think congress is hungry for someone that will work with them instead of manipulate and not veto to bill with middle class tax relief and research and development tax credits and mr. bush has done. me a chance to do that. i have to worry about the federal reserve. their policies are tty sound. >> president bush, you have one minute. >> i don't think the fed to be put under the executiv. there is separation there. i think that's fine. alan green span is respected. i've had arguments about the speed we might have lowered rates. but governor clinton talks about th to the markets. was a mome terry fear that he might win. the markets went down like this ! the stock market has been strong since i was president. they recognized that we have difficulties. they're optimist whyick

more than the pessimist we have up here. i'm going to protect the american taxpayer against the spend and tax congress. i'm going to keep on vetoing them cause i don't think we're taxed to little. i he government is he can label it tax for the rich, i'm going to protect the working man by veto and threaten veto until the new congress comes in. i have to protect them. >> mr. perot, one minute. >> to keep the federal reserve independent, but let's live in a world of realy. we live in a gobl economy. rest rates we have now don't make any sense. we have a $4 trillion dollar debt and oble in america would you finance it five years or less. so 70% of our debt is f years or less. we have a between what we pay for traerb ris and what pays.

that gap is going to close because the arabs and japanese and folks in these countries are going to start buying more because they can get more money. every ur interest rits goes up 1% that adds $28 billion to the deficit or the debt, whichever place you want to put it. we are sitting on a ticking bomb folks because we have totally mismanaged our d we better get it back under control. just think in your own business if you had all of your long term problems financed short term, y would go broke in a hurry. >> all right we're going to move to foreign affairs. the first question goes to mr. pet for a 2 minute answer and sander vanocur will ask ask it. >> mr. perot, if the -- -- in the cold war environment, what should be the overriding u.s. national interest and what can the united states do

around what can it afford to do to defend that national interest? >> well, if you're not superpower.e not a i have one and 1/8. one is we have to have the money to pay for defense. we've got to manufacture here, believe it or not folks, you can't ship it all overseas, you have to make it here. you can't convert from potato chips to emergency. we've got to make things here. you just can't ship them overseas more. i hope we talk more about that. the second thing, on prhave to help russia succeed in the revolution and all the republics. when we talk about russia, we're thinking about many countries. that's pennies on the dollar. third, we've got all kind

of agreements on paper and some being executed on getting rid of nuclear war heads. russia and the republics are t of control at best than what we control right now. it's an unstable situation. you have every counselry -- country over there trying to buy weapons. we really need to nail down the intercontinental bow listick missles. the ones that can hit us from russia. we're focused there.we made. we have ag on the nuclear, but we don't have those thput away yet. on terms of priorities, we have to be financially strong. number two, we have to take care of this missle situation and try to get the nuclear war behind us and give that a high pr number three, we need to help and support russia and the republics in every possible way to come democratic d not sit

back and let those count rist continue in turmoil. there are a lot of people in the military and kgb that liked it the way it use to be. >> governor clinton, one minute. >> in order to make it the strongest nation in the world, we need continuity and change. there are fundamental challenges. the world is a dangerous and uncertain place. we need a new military and new national military policy. a smallepermanent military force but one that is more mobile andwell trained with high technology equipment. we have to continue the negotiates with the former soviet union and the united states. second, we have to face that in is world economic security is a whole lot national security.

our dollars at a all time low. we're weak in the world. we must rebuild the strength at home. finally, we ought to be promoting the democratic around. th are our liable friends in the future. >> president bush, one minute. >> we still are the envy in the world in terms of the military. there is no question about that. we are the envy of the world about the economy despite economy. our exports are up. i might say to mr. perot that you might have missed it, because there is s much fascination with thrif deal with jeltsin to eliminate the -18, the big missle. that's been done. god it has becau the parents of these young people around here go to bed night witho

same fear of nuclear war. we e dramatic progress. we have a good military. the question to get a new military and the best in the world, we got it. they're keeping the peace and they're respected around the world and we're more respected because of the way we conducted ves. we didn't listen to the nuclear freeze crowd. the cold war is over. america understands that. we're turned so inward that we don't understand the global picture. we are helping democracy, the freedom support act is something i got through the ngress because it does exactly what you say. i think you agree with that to help russian democracy. we're going to keep on doing that. >> the next question is for governor clinton. >> as president, how wld you exsert u.s. power to

influence affairs in china. >> i think our relationships with china are important and i don't think we want to isolate china. but i think it is a e for us to do what this administration did when all those kids it done. happened. china has finally reed to stop sending us products made with prison labor, not because we coddle them but because the administration was pushed into doing something about it. recently, the chien yaes nounced that they're going to lower barriers to

r products which they ought to do since they have a $15 billion surplus with them.

: it's moving, not as fact as we'd like, but isolate china and turn them inward, and we have made a tremendous mistake. i am going to fight a lot of people that were saving human rights and we were the people that t the s on and stood for it. scowcroft didn't go over to

codel. he went over say you must make the changes you are making now. >> one minute, mr. perot. >> china ihuge country, oken into many provinces. it has some very elderly leaders that will not be around too much longer. capitalism is thriving because bins of china -- and asia wi our largest trading partner in the future. it will be a growing and closer relationship. we have a delicate tight a walk that we must go through at the present time to make sure that we do not cozy unto tyrants, to msure that they don't get the impression that they can suppre their people, but time is our friend here, because their leaders will in not too many years, worst case, and their country is making great progress. one last part on the missiles. i don't want the american

people to be confused. we have wgreements and we have some missiles that have been destroyed. we have a huge number of ballistic allistic missiles that are still in placin russia. the fact that you have an agreement is one thing. to destroy them, some crazy person can sell them or use them. >> our next question goes to president bush for a two-minute answer and anne will ask it. >> mr. president, how can you watch the killing in bosn and the ethnic problems or the starvation in somalia and not want to use america's might or military and try to end this? >> both are complicated situations. i vowed something, because i learned something from veet naj. i am not going to commit u.s. forces until i know what the mission is, until the military tell me that it can be completed, until i know hocan come

out. we are helping american airplanes are helping today on humanitarian relief for sayer yaif owe. it is america relief in the lead for somalia. when you put somebody else's son or daughter in the war, i think you have got to be a little bit careful and you have to be sure that there is a military plan that can do this. you have ancient ethnic rivalries that have cropped up as yugoslavia has dissolved or getting dissolved, and it isn't going to be solved by sending in the 82 understand airborne. inl's not going to as america's commander and i am going to use the morale persuasion of the united states to get satisfaction in rms of prison camps, and we're making some progress and in terms of getting humanitarian rin there. right now, as you know, e ed states the lead in the no-fly operation up there -- the no-fly order up in the united nations.

we are working through the international organizations. that's one thing i learned by forging that highly successful collision against saddam hussein, the dictat work internationally to do t i am very concerned about it. i am concerned about ethnic cleansing. i am concerneabout tacks on slems, for example, over there, but i stop short of using american force until i know how those young men and women are going to get out of there, as well as get in, know what their mission is and define it. i think i'm on the right track. >> are you designing a mission? >> sorry, timeup. we have to go to mr. perot for a one-minute response. >> if we have learned anything in vietnam, it is that you first commit this nation before you commit the troops to the battle field. we cannot send our people all over the world to solve evy problem that comes up. this is basically a that is the primary concern to e european community. certainly we care about the people.

we care about the children. we care about the tragedy. but it is inappropriate for us, just because there is a problem somewhere around the world, to take the sons and daughterof working people, and make no mistake about it, our volunteer armed forcare not made up of the sons and daughters of the beautiful people t is the working people who send their sons and daughters, like word war iis when fdr's sons flew missions, everyone went. it is a diffent world now. very important, it is, without thinking it through, we cannot run to every parliament in the worland have our people torn to pieces. >> governor clinton, minute. >> i agree we cannot commit ground forces to become involved in 9 ground war of of somalia, but there are things that can be done short of that, and that we do have interest there. there are, after all, tw

llion refugees because of the problems in what was yugoslavia, the largest number since world war ii and hundreds of thousan of people who will starve or freeze to death in this winter. the united states should work with its allies and stop it. i urge the president to support this air cover, and i ap plued that. i applaud the no-fly zone, and i know he is going back enforce it. i think we have to consider whether or not we should w on the bosnians, since they are in way in a fair fight with a heavily armed opponent bent on ethnic cle we cannot get involved in the quagmire, but we must what we can. >> moving on now to divisions in our kun dry, the first question goes to governor clinton for two minutes and anne will ask it. >> governor clinton, can you tell us what your

definition of the word "family" is? >> a family involves at least one parent, whether natul oradoptive, or foster, and chilen.a good f where love and discipline and good values are transmitted from the elders to the children, a place where people turn for refuge and where they know they're the most important pele in the world. america has a lot of families that are in trouble today. there has been a lot of talk about family values in this campaign. i know a t about that. i was born to a widowed mother who gave me family values and grandparents. i have seen the family valu arkansas, and i have seen the values of all these people in america who are out there killing themselves working harder

for less, in a country that has had the worst economic years in 50 years in the first decline in industrial decline in production ever. i think the president owes it to value us to show he values family values, whether you are trying to work from welfare to work. break to lift them r deserve a above poverty if they have child in the house and working 40 hours a week, working families who deserve a fair tax system and the opportunity fo constant retraining. they deserve a strong onomy, and ink they deserve a family and medical leave act. 72 other nations have been able to do it. mr. bush vetoed it twice because he says we can't do something 72 other countries do, even though there is a small business exemption, so all the talk about family values, i know about family values. i wouldn't be here without them. the best expression of my ly values is that tonight is my 17th wedding anniversary and i would like to close my estion

by wishing my a happy 17th an versesy annived thanking my daughter for being here. >> president bush, on minute. >> i would say tha meeting that made a profound impression on me was when the mays of the big cities, including the mayor of los angeles, a dem rat, came to me and unanimously and said the decline in america stems from the decline in the american family. i do think we need to strengthen family. when barbara holds an aids baby, she shows a certain compassion for family. when she reads to children, the same thing. i believe that discipline and respect for the law, all of these things should be taught to children, not in our schools, but families have to do that. i'm appalled at the highest outrageous numbers of divorces. it happens in families. it's happened in ours. but it has gotten to be too

much. i think we ought to do rerespect the american o family. it can be a single-parent family. those mothers need help. one way to do it is to get the dead beat what thers to pay their obligations to the mothers. that will he strengthen the obligation to family. >> mr. perot, you have one minute. >> if i had to solve all the problems that face this country, and i could granted one wish, as we started down the trail to rebuild the job base, the schools and so on and so forth, i would say a stro family unit in every home, where every child is loved, nurtureed and encouraged. a little child before they are 18 months learns to ink well of himself or herself or poorly. they devop a positive or tive self- at avery early age, they learn how to learn. if we have children who are not surrounded with love and affection -- see, i look at my grandchildr and wonder if will ever learn to walk because

they are in someone's arms. i think, my gosh, wouldn't wondeeverchild has that love and support, but they don't. we will not be a great country unless we have a strong family unit in every home, and i think you can use the white house as a pulpit to stress the importance of these little children, particularly in the young formative yes, to mold these little precious pieces of clay, so that they, too, can live wonderful lives when they are grown. >> new question, two-minute answer, goes to president bush. sandy will ask it. >> mr. president, there has been a lot of talk about harry truman in this campaign, so much so that i will seeim named as the next commissioner of baseball tomorrow morning. if mr. truman didn't have to do with, he didn't have to deal with drugs. americans are alarmed about drug related crimes in cities and suburbs, and your administration is not

the first to have grappled with this, and are you at all of a mind that maybe it ought to go to another level, if not to what is advocated by william f. buckley jr. , legalization between there and where we are now? >> no. i don't think that's the right answer. i don't believe legalizing narcotics is the answer. i just don't believe that's the answer. i do believe that there is some fairly good news out there. the use of cocaine, for example, by teenagers is dramically wn, but we've got to keep fighting on this war against drugs. we're doing a little better in interdiction. many of the countries below that used to say, "well, this the united states problem. if you get the demand down, then we wouldn't have the problem, " are working cooperatively with the dea and the military. we are using the military

now of interdiction. up. funding for recovery is recovering the addicts. where we are not making the progress, -- we are making it gers. i felt what ross saitds said was most appropriate about the families and children. where we are not making it addicts. i'll tell you one one place it is workinwell, and that is the private sector. jim burke and this task force, youmay know about, it tell the american people, but this man "i'll get you $1 million a day in pro bono advertising, " something that is very hard for the government to do. he went out and he did it. people are beginning to educate through this program, teaching these kids you shouldn't use drugs. so we are stilin the fight, but i must tell you, i think legalizion of narcotics or something of that nature, in tof the medical evidence, would unterproductive, and oppose it, and i will stand

up and continue to oppose it. >> mr. perot, one minute. >> any ti you think you want to legalize drugs, go to a eonatal unit, if you can get in. there are 200 percent capacity up and down the coast. the reason is crack babies are being born, in the hospital 42 days. the typical cost to you and. again and again and again the mother disappears in three and the child becomes a ward of the state, because he is permanently and genetically damaged. just look at those little children, and if anybody can even think about legalizing drugs, they have lost me. let's look at priorities. we went on the libyan raid. remember that one? because we were worried to death that muammar qaddafi might be building up chemical weapons. we have chemical warfare being conducted on the stre every day with the kids, and we don't have the will to stake it out.

again, if i get up there, if you send me, we will have some blunt talks about this, and we will really get down to the trenches and ask is thisen the one you want to fix? and talk doesn't do it, because there are guys that couldn't ga job in a dairy queen selling drugs and driving a mercedes. this old boy isn't going to quit on that. >> governor clinton, one minute. >> like mr. perot, i have held crack babies in my arms. but i know more abouthis, i think, than anybody else up here, because i have a brother who is a recovering drug addict. i'm very proud of him, but i can tell you this: if drugs were legal, i don't think he'd be alive today. i am adamantly opposed to legalizing drusing. he is alive today because

the criminal justice system. that's a mistake. what should we do? first we ought to prevent f this the street. 30 years ago, there were 3 policemen for every crime, now there are three crimes for every policeman. we need more policemen. i have a plan for that. we ought to have boot camp for first time nonviolent o education and treatment and get reconnected to the community before they are severed where they can learn how to be first-class criminals thr-fmt is a crime bill that was blocked from passage once again, mostly by republicans in the united states senate, which would have addressed some of those problems. that crime bill will be one of my highest priorities next january, if i become present. >> neestion is to you, mr. perot. you have two minutes to answer it, and john will ask it. >> mr. perot, racial divisi continues to te apt our great cities, the

last episode being this spring in los angeles. why is this still happening in america, and what would you do to end it? >> this is a relative question tonight. the first thing i would do is during political mpaigns, i would ufrj everyone to stop trying to split this country into fragments and appeal to the differences between us and wonder why the melting pot is broken into pieces on november 3rd. we are all in this together. we ought to love one another because united teams win and divided teams lo we ought to get along with one another. recognize we're l stuck together because nobody is going anywhere. let's get along and make it work. our diversity is a strength. we've turned it into a weakness. again, the white house is a

pulp. whoever is in the white house, they should make it inexcusable and if anybody is in middle of a speech at one of these conventions, i would expect the candidate if he preachs hate becau tage we don't have time for it. our differences are our strengths. divided teams lose and united teams win. we have to pull together. if we sit around blowing all this energy out the window on racial strike and hatred, we are struck with we have been a melting pot. we're becoming more and more of a melting pot. let's make it a strength not a weakness. >> governor clinton, one minute. >> i grew up in the segregated south.

thankfully raised by a grandfather with almost no formal education but with a heart of fold that taught me early that all people were equal in the eyes of god. i saw the win of hatred divide people and keep the people of my state poore than they would of been spiritually and economically. i've de everything to overcome racial divisions. we don't have a person to waste in this country. economically because we d have too many dropouts and addicts and we're too divided by race and economic and region. i have devoted this campaign to going across the try to go to white tkwrops african-american groups and other groups to say the same thing, if the american people cannot be brought together we can't turn this country around. if we can come together,

nothing can stop us. >> mr. esident, one minute. >> well, i think governor clinton is committed. i do think it's fair to note, he can rut it, that arkae of the few states that doesn't have civil rights legislation. i have tried to use the white use the pulpit. we have passed two forward civil rights bills. done by legislation, but i do think you need to make an appeal every time you can eliminate racial divisions and discrimination and i'll keep on doing that and pointing to some legislative aaccomplishment. >> i have to point out something else to say to ross perot, please don't say to the dea agents on the street that we don't have the will to fight drugs. please, i've watched these

people. the same for our local enforcement people, we are backing up in every way we possibly can. maybe you met that some in the country don't have the will to fight it but we've been a strong backer. i want to clear that up. >> it's time. >> we have the will to fight it and some have let's go to another . subject. the subject of health. the first question to president for two minutes. >> mr. president, tens of thousands of people paradeed pass the white house to demonstrate their concern about the disease aids, a sell brailted member of your commission imagjohnson saying there was too much inaction. where is this widespread feeling coming from that your administration is not doing enough about aids? >> coming from the politica. we have increased funding for aids. we've doubled it.

research and every other as pebt. my request for this year was .9 billion for aids. ten times as much for aids victims as per cancer victim. i think that we're showing the proper compassion and concern. so i can't tell you where it's coming from. but i am very much concerned about aids and i believe that we got the best researchers in the world at nih working the problem. we're funding them. i wish there were more mone. we're going to keep on funding them. i don't know, i was a little disappointed in magic because he came to me and said, if you see something we're not doing, get ahold of me, let me know. he went to one meeting and we heard he was stepping down. he was replaced by mary fisher who elect fied the compassion and and --

and the moment. i think the appeal is, yes, we care. the other thing is, part of aids, it's one of the few diseases where behavior matters. i once called on somebody, change your behavior. if he behavior you're using is prone to c aids, change your behavior. the next thing i know, one of the act-up groups says bush should change his behavior. you can't talk about it rationally. to go into a catholic mass in a beautiful cathedral in new rk in a cause of aids and they start condoms, it sets back the cause. wove got to care. we've got to continue everything we at the federal and local level. barbara, i think, is doing 5 superb job in destroying the myth about aids and all of us are in this fight together.

all of us care. do not go to the extreme. one minute mr. perot. >> first, i think mary fisher is a great choice. we're luckto having her head the commission. secondly, i think one thing do the job, i would sit down with them and focus on getting these things out. if you're going to die, you don't hago through this cycle. people with aids are more than willing to take the risk. we could be moving out to the human population a whole lot faster than we are on some of these new drugs. we go back a minute to racial de vices. the all time low was judge thomas and anitta hill meeting. they should hang their

heads in shame for what they did there. secondly, not many times you get a time to talk to the whole country, but if you hate people, i don't want your vote. that's how strongly i feel about it. governor clinton, one minute. >> over 150,000 americans have died of aids are. well over million and a quarter of americans are hiv positi. we need put one pers in charge of the battle against aids. we need to eck sell rate the drug approval we need to fully fund the for brian white. the president should lead a nationto change behavior, to keep our children alive and the schools responsible behavior to keep people alive. this is a matter of life and death.

i have worked in my state to reduce teen pregnancy. the reason magic johnson resigned is because the statement you heard from mr. bush is the longest and best statement he made about it in public. i'm prof what we did as a democratic convention putting two hiv people on the platform and i'm proud the lead'm going to give to this country in dealing with the aids crisis. >> new question for r. perot, you have two minutes to answer and ann compton will ask it. >> mr. perot, even if you got what people say are the guts to take on changes in the most popular and most sakeered, since a president isn't a lone ranger, how in the world can you make some of those unpopular changes? >> twoays, number one, if i get there, it wilbe a

very unusual and historical eept, because the people -- because the people , not the special interest, put me there. i will have a unique man tate. i have said again d again and this upsets the establishment in washington that we're going to inform the people in detail through an lech tronic town hall so they know what's going on. they will want to do what for our country. all of these fellows with thousand dollar suits and alligator suits, at make laws now, they'll be over there in the smithsonian, you know. we're going to get rid of them. ing to the people and ill be the american people are willing to have fair shared sacrifice. they're not as stupid as washington thinks they are. bright, intelligent, caring, loving people that

want a great country for their children and grandchildren and they will make those sacrifices.i wel and just watch, because if the american people send me thwe'll get it done. now, everybody will faint washington. they've never seen anything happen in that town. this is a town where the white house says, congress did it. house did it.ess says the white and i'm saying, who else could be around. when they get off by themselves, they say nobody did it. yet the cash register is empty and use to have taxpayer's money in it. we'll get it done. governor, one minute. >> ross, that's a great speech, but it's not quite that sim >> look at the facts. both parties in washing ton, the president and the

congress have cut medicare. the average senior citizen is spa higher tage on health care today than they were in 1965efore medicare came out. president got another proposal to require them to pay $400 more a year for the xt five years. if you don't have the guts to control costs by changing the insurance system in the private and public sector, you can't fix the problem. cost will spiral. remember this, a lot of folks on medicare are out there every day making the choice of food and medicine medicare or mend not wealthy to buy medicine. i've m people. they can't buy medicine. when we talk about cutting haelgt care costs, let's talk about the insurance companies who are making a

killing instead of making the people healthy. on. president. -- president bush. >> every four years they say the republicans are going to cut medicare. i'm the president that stood up and said, don't mess wisecurity and i'm not going to. wehaven't. we are not going to go after the social security recipient. i have one difference with mr. pet on that. i don't thinshould touch social security. what we do need to do is control the growth of these mandatory programs. ross says, there is pain in that, but governor clinton simply refuses to touch that. what we have to do is control that and let it grow for inflation and let itrow for the amount of new people added, poand then hold the line. i believe that is the way you get the deficit down, not by the tax and spend program at we hear every

four years whether it's mon dale or dukakis or whoever it is. i don't think we should do that. hold the line on social security and put a cap on the growth of themandatory program. >> new question, it is for governor clinton. sander vanocur will ask it. >> governor clinton, i remember in 1965 when wilber mills, was pushing it through the congress. it socialized medicine. >> mr. bush made that charge. >> he served it two years later where i first met him. the second point is this it is now sky rocketing out of control. people want it. they say it's going bonkers. is not the oregon plan applied to medicaid the proper wayto go even throw the -- though the federal government ruled it? >> i thought the oregon pla

allowed to be tried because at least the people in oregon were trying to do something. let me go back to the main point, mr. bush is trying to run against lindon johnson and jimmy carter and not me. i have proposed a plan for health care. i will say again, you cannot control health care costs by controlling medi look at this, they have cut medicare and medicaid the last few years. we've done it in arkansas. but what happens? more and more people get on throlls as y increases. if you don't control the health care entire system, you can't get control. look at our program, we set up a program tied to inflation and population growth set by health care providers.we provide more mm

competition and we control private and public health care costs. now just a few days ago, a by partisan commission of republicans and democrats, more republicans, said my plan will save the average family $1200 a year more than the bush plan will by the year 2,000. $2.2 trillion dollars in the next two years. i've got a plan to control health care s, but you just can't do it by cutting medicare. you have to take on the inrance companies. you have to have cost controls yes, but keep in miwe're spending 30% more on health care th any other country but we stil35 million people uninsured. the oregon plan is a good start if the federal government is going to continue to abandon their responsibility. if hawaican cover 98% of their people and lower

health care costs and if new york can do ittwo thirds of the cost, america can do it, too. we can do better and we must. >> president bush minute. >> don't have time in 30 seconds, or a minute, to talk about it. it's easy to dismiss the concerns of the disabled. as president, i have to be sure that the wavers that weaproofing -- approving has to be covered. the americans for disability act was the most foremost piece of legislation passed in all times. or clinton clicked off the things that you have to take on insurance companies and bure ock sis, he failed to take on somebody else. those that bring these ts against these

frivolous trial lawyer lawsuits that are the cost care up to $20-$25 billion. he refuses to put costs on these. don't run these up . or have somebody along the highway not stop to pick up a guy or help him because he's afraid a trial lawyer will come along and sue him. we're suing too much and caring for each other too little. >> mr. perot, one minute. >> we've got the most expensive health care system in the world. it ranks behind 15 other nations. when wcome to life expectsy. in r nations when we come to innoornt tality, so we don't have the best. if you're paying more and you don't have the best, go

copy tpeople that have the best and spend less. we can do better than that. we have plans lying all over that nobody implements. now i'm back to square one. if you want to stop talking about it and do it, then i'll be glad to do it. if you want to keep the music going, stay traditional. if four years from now, you'll have everybody blaming everybody else for a bad health care system. deeds are precious. let's get on with it. >> and that's exactly what we're going to do. that was, in fact, the final question and answer. each candidate will have up to two minutes. the order, remember, was determined by a rawing. >> it's been a privilege to talk to the american people tonight. i make tpwhons about it i love this country. i love the principle it's

founded on. i love the people here. i ike to see the countries principle violateed. i don't think to see the people in a deteriorated country. our government has lost touch with the people. we have a bad system. we have to change the system. it's time to do it because we have run up so much debt that time is no longer our friend. we've got to put our house in order. when you go to bed tonight, look at your children, think of their dreams, think of your dreams as a chd and ask yourself, isn't it time to stop talking about it? isn't it time to stop creating images and time to do it? aryou sick of being treated like a program bot? they tell you howvote, but then go to business as usual. they told you at the tax and budget summit, that if

you agreed to a tax increase, they would handle the budget. that'sashington in a nutshell right there. the final analysis, i'm doing this for your children, when you look at them tonight. ere's another group that i feel very close to and these are the men and women that fought on the battle field, the families of the one that died, the people that left parts of their bodies there. i would er ask you do anything for me, but i caou what it means to me when i see you here and yo up and the look in the your eyes and i know how you feel and you know how i feel. then i think of the older people who retired, they grew up in the depression. they ught in world war ii. we owe you a debt that we never repay you. the greatest thing that i can give back is recreate

the american for your chilen and your grandchildren. i'll do everything i can if you want me to do it. >> i'like to thank e people at st. louis and washington university, the presidential debate commission and all the people tmade this night possible, and i woullike to thank those of you who were watching. most of all, i would like to thank all the people that touched me in some way this past of year, all the people that i have seen, the electronics executives in con valley, 2/3w>s who are republicans who they wanted to sign on to create a change. i want to thank the executives in chicago who said they wanted to change. i want to thank the people who started with mr. perot who have come on to help our kamt pain. i uld like to thank all the folks around america

that no one ever know about the woman who was holding the aids baby she adopted in cedar rapids iowa, who asked plea to do something morto adoption, the woman who stopped along the road in wisconsin and wept because her husband lost his job after 27 years. all the people who are having a tough time and the people who are winning and know how desperately we need to change. th debate tonight is made crystal clear, a challenge that is as old as america, the choice between hope and fear, change omore of the same, the courage to move into a new tomorrow or to listen to the crowd who says things could be worse. mr. bush has said some very compelling things tonight that don't quite square withhe record. he was president for three years before he propos a health care plan that still hasn't been sent to congress in total, three years before an economi plan, and he still didn't say tonight at that tax bill he vetoedaised taxes only on the rich and gave the rest of you a break,

but he vetoed it anyway. i offered a new direction, invest in american jobs, american education, control health care cost bring this country together again. i want the future of this e asbrilliant as its past, and it cbe if we have the courage to change. >> president bush, your opposing statement. >> let me tell you a litt of what it is like to be president. in the oval office, you can't predict what kind of crisis is going come up. you have to make tough calls. you can't be on one ha this way and one hand another. you can't take fferent positions on these difficult issues, and then you need a philosophical -- it a philosophical underpinning. my for foreign affairs is democracy and freedom. look at the dramatic changes around the world.

the cold war is over. the soviet union is no more. we are working with a democratic cou poland, czechoslovakia, the baltics are free. take a look at the middle east. we had to stand up nst a tyrant. the united states came together. we have in many, many years like this, and we quicked -- kicked this man out of kuwait. the s, as a result of that will, decision and toughness, we now have ancient enemies talking peace in the middle east. no one would have thought it possible. the biggest dividend in making these tough calls is that we are leafra nuclear war. every parent out there has less worry that their kids are going to be aced with nuclear holocaust. what we ust do is have change that empowers people not change for the sake of change, tax and spend, we don't need to do that anymore. what we need to do is empower people. we need to invest and save. we need to do better in education. we need to do better in job

retraining. pos, and we need to d our strengthen the american family. i hope, as president, i have earned your trust. i have admitted it when i make a mistake, but then i go on and help try to solve the problems. i hope i have earned your trust, because a lot of being president is a lot about trust and character, for four more years to support finish this job. thank you very, very much. >> don't go away yet.i just thanthe three panelists and candidates for participating, president bush, stkpwof nor clinton and mr. perot. they will

appear again together on october is 5th and again on october 19th. next tuesday, there will be a debate am candidates for vice presidfor now, from washington university in st. louis, missouri, i'm jim lehrer. ptioning sponsored by: at&t captioning provided by:ccs,2 grand rapids, michigan

>> thank you phil and welcome again to t missouri press association debates. let me introduce to you today our candidates, we have to my left, republican congressmantodd akin. in the middle, democratic senator claire mccaskill. at the end, libertarian candidate jonathan dine. let me also introduce to you today our panel of journalist who will be joining me and asking

questions today of the candidates. we have a student at the university of missouri, we have bill miller of the washington missourian and jeff fox of the independent examiner. now let me briefly go over the rules of our debate today. the candidates drew numbers in advance to determine their speaking order. they will each have two minutes for an opening statement. candidates will have the 90 seconds to answer each question with a 45 second rebuttal at the oion of the moderator. i will ask the first question and then our panelist will take turns asking questions. at the end of the debate, candidates will have two minutes for closing debates. for the members of the audience, we ask you to silence your phone and hold your applause. let's get started. we're read for our opening

statements a congressman akin you're first. >> thank you all very much for allowing us to have this chance to talk about things that matter abou our families and about our country. i'm an engineer. ierved as an officer i the army and work for ibm where i met my dear wife of 37 years. we have 6 six, 8 grandchildren. thee of -- three of my sons nt to the neal -- navel academy. as you can imagine, i have a great love for our country and for the american dream and the things that made us who we are. but my sense is, that things are not all right. if you take a look at gasoline prices, they are double what they were a few

years ago. food prices are up. for the fact is, the jobs aren't there and the numbers are much worse. we also have the $16 trillion of debt, a trillion plus deficit every year and all of these things are like little red lights on the dashboard telling you, something is not right. i believe that we have forgotten the secret of what made america such a special country. that is sething which we see being destroyed right at our very-- right in front of our very eyes. we see a washington d.c., whh got more and more red tape and bureaucracy and agency and executive orders and taxes and everything and they basically crushing freedom in america. your choice in this election is either more freedom as i have voted for more washington d.c.

it's your choice, more freedom or more washington. >> claire caskill? >> thank you to the press association. it is great to be here and thank you to both tawed and jonathan for being here today. this election will be a quite contrast for missourians not because we're at opposite ends. i'm in the middle. he's so far on the fringe. there have been many comments made in thi campaign that congressman akin that i find unacceptable. it's his views that will be painful. i'm proud of my strong moderate record in senate where i have worked with many republicans to do important things. like cutting spending, like banning earmarks, like cutting taxes over a trillion dollars for small businesses and working

families. cleaning up contracting and protecting promoting american jobs. todd has worked closing with michelle bachmann, they pushes things that will harm missouri. on march 8, 2011, todd akin said i don't like social security. he's bone on in this campaign to -- he would raise the retirement age he would lower the benefit. on august 13, 201 he said medicare was constitutional. since that time, he has in fact voted several times to voucherrize medicare. it arm wrestle with them

for coverag and whether their claims will be paid. i believe we can lower the deficit and debt but we will not do it, we should do not do it at the expense of these program programs for seniors. >> jonathan dine? >> welcome everybody and thank you focome out today. i want to give a big thanks for the missouri press association to host this debate. my name a jonathan dine and i'm a libertarian candidate for the united states senate. like many of you, i'm tired of the constant fighting of the republicans and democrats. beating the other team has become more important. america is now on the verge of a financial collapse and both parties are to blame with their wreckless tax, borrow and spend policies. neither party seriously about balancing the budget or lowering your taxes or restoring your personal

freedom. for as long as i can remember, republican and democrat politicians offering up solutions. higher and higher taxes. enough is enough. as a libertarian senator, i will stand up for your personal freedom, i'm socially accepting and tolerance. i'm also fiscalally responsible. i'm tired of the wreckless spending and the wreckless earmarks as your senator, i will vote no to wreckless spending, vote no to any legislation where spending exceeds revenue. i will advocate on the part of the balanced budget amendment. the government should live within its means just like the people of missouri. supporting my candidacy means supporting a lower tax level across the board. we do not need politicians telling us what we can love, what to do with our own money and body. be libertarian with me on

november 6th. >> thank you, it is now time to turn to question segment. i will ask the first question and it will go first to congressman todd akin. the missouri senate race was thrust into the national spot light after comments congressman akin raised. to what extent this comment matter and to what context do you think voters should consider it on election day? >> i answered this questi repeatedly. i don't believe that this election overall is about ta. but it's really about two visions of what america is. are we going to go down the path of greece that constantly has a bigger government and taxing more? are we going to go the path of america has always been on a path where we allow freedom, where we allow the

american dream to flourish where we don't crush it under the burden of washington d.c. that's the choice of two different americas. it seems to me what a senator should be doing is taking the common sense that you and i know that's here in missouri and taking that to washington d.c. that's what this election is really about. it's not about words. it's about two different votingrecords that are the exact opposite. claire can say these a 50 percenter when you vote 98% of the time with obama, give her credit to that.

>> i think congressman akin's comments opens the window to his views for missourians. he has apologizedder those comments but they say a lot about how he views things. that's where missourians need to pay attention. i believe a rape victim should be allowed to have a emergency contraception in order to avoid pregnancy. dd akin does not. i believe his view is extreme and out of the mainstream for most missourians. there's other extreme views, he wants to abolish the mimum wage, he wants to do away with student loans. think what would happen to columbia, missouri if the only kid who could get a college loans, the only kids that can go to college with rich kids are the super star academics. he wants to privatize

medicare, privatize social security, he wants to do away with student lunch program. he is one of the handful, think there were four or five members of th unid states congress that voted to eliminate child nutrition program. the vote was something like 416-5. i don't think that's the mainstream compromise willing fix probms and attitude that's we need to send to washington. it's not what he said that is the problem, it's what he believes that's the problem. >> jonathan dine? >> like many of you, i found akin's comments insulting and insensitive to victims of rape. i believe it shows that career politicians have grown too secluded in washington and have

forgotten what life is like outside of politics. i was astonished to find that akin's sits on the science committee and he fails to understand 8th grade biology. it illustrates t point that we have 535 people to regulate everything but produce thing. we really need to step back and understand that his views and the views of an individual shouldn't be regulated by the government. he speaks for smaller government, yet he wants to push govnment morality on other individuals because they choose a different way of life. as your senator, i think the issues of abortion are really a wedge issue to take away and distract from the important issues like balancing the budgets and ending the wars and destroying your personal freedom. step back and take a look at the important issues.

>> congressman akin, there were several characterizations of your position there. would oatlikoffer a chance of rebuttal? >> there were a few words ere. let's start with a couple really basic things. if you don't believe the federal government should do everything, it doesn't mean you don't believe in it. the question do you want the federal governmt to take over everything that's important. i don't think so. my comments about student loans why don't we leave it thway it was couple years ago where private lenders can be involved in student loans. or school lunches. is it okay to say maybe that should be done by the state of missouri. does it mean you're against school lunches. mind set here is the federal government has to do everything for us all the time. you want to talk about medicare, let's talk about votes. let's talk about somebody who voted to take $700 billion out of medicare and then wants to crusade as the big hero of medicare. i don't understand that.

>> claire mccaskill, he raised the issue of you wants to take $700 billion out of medicare. >> first, no one is saying private lenders can't lend to students. they can do that now. they just didn't want to do unless the federal government was backing them up and making a cut. all we did say take out the middle man who'saking a cut with no risk. i would thing congressman akin appreciate that. none is keeping banks from loaning to students. secondly on the medicare cuts, this is the biggest swapper of this campaign season. it is unbelievable to me that congressman akin will vote time and time again for same medicare savings. he knows that the ryan budget took that same saving, you know what they did with the saving, they

gave another tax cut to kim kardashian, they gave another tax cut to lebron james, instead of what we need to do with the money, that is strengthening the medicare program. >> we must move on to the next questions here. the next questio goes to senator claire mccaskill. >> in the past 11 years, average prices for undergraduate tuition room and board at public colleges have risen 42% according to the u.s. department of education. what is the specific solution to the declining affordability of education? >> i will tell you it's not to eliminate the department of education. that's what congressman akin wants to do. what we did is we took the middle man out of the student loan and ok that

cut that they were making with no risk. we took that money and increased the amount of the pell grant which allows more kids to get to college. this is the land the opportunity. this is where we believe that anybody can do anything and personal freedom is very important but to get to that next lad dar, there's a lot of families that can't get their kids to college. i don't want to shut that door for them. it's important, i think, we keep the pell grants in place. it's a big contrast between me and congressman akin. we have to pay attention to student tuition. it is i think, bad that we are not investing more in higher education at the state and local level. unlike many others, we should raise the cigarette tax. i'm embarrassed that the cigarette tax is the lowest in the country. our cigarette tax is 17 cents a pack. we could raise it by almost

a dollar and still be the cheapest cigarettes in the midwest and have that money go directly to help with higher education. >> jonathan dine? >> education should be getting cheaper, not more expensive. with cheaper computers and electronics, i would like to open up the door for entrepreneurs to come into education. our education system comes too rigid. we don't need to look at why the reason tuition prices are raising. i believe easy to secure government loan have actually increased the price of college with kids receiving more money llege institutio have increased the price. if there wasn't as much money being lent out, college campuses would be empty and will be forced to lower the price of tuition. greed has played a big price. i would like to work on investing in education. i think it is something

that's important but it should be done athe state and local level. not the federal government. >> todd akin. >> thank you for a good question here. this is one that really affects a whole lot of people. there was a young man in my office the other day, he said i'm glad i'm out of college but i do owe $100,000 and i'm looking for a job. i thought, how hard it is to try to save $100,000 for that undergraduate degree. how many years it's going to take to try to set that money aside. this is a big problem and it's affecting a whole lot of people. but, the question is then, why is it that college education is just spiraling up in its cost? part of it is because of the government. when the government keeps get into tings, it affects the marks place. what's happening is, the government is giving these loans and encouraging the

prices to go up and where does that stop? we're putting people into an incrible vice by the government using more and more money to dohi